Shilpa Uskokovic: What is your typical bagel order, Jesse?
Jesse Szewczyk: My dream bagel order, I live in New York, so you got to keep price in mind, but it would be a bagel with cream cheese, lox, tomatoes. And maybe that’s it.
SU: Oh, of course.
JS: But that lox in New York, yeah. That’s going to be like a $20 bagel. What about you?
SU: Scallion cream cheese on an everything bagel and then tomatoes and bacon.
JS: That sounds nice.
SU: Yeah.
JS: The bacon’s crazy, but it sounds nice.
SU: I’m Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: And I’m Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: We’re both senior test kitchen editors at Bon Appétit.
JS: And this is BA Bake Club.
SU: Bake Club is Bon Appétit’s Book Club, but it’s for baking.
JS: We’re creating the nerdiest and most wholesome corner of the baking internet.
SU: Every month we publish a recipe on bonappetit.com that introduces a baking concept that we think you should know.
JS: Then you’ll go bake, send us any questions you might have or pictures of your finished creations.
SU: And we’ll get together here on the podcast to talk about the recipe.
JS: The February Bake Club recipe, which is Cheddar Biscuits, is live now on bonappetit.com, and we’ll tell you a bit more about it at the end of the show.
SU: But today we’re going to talk all about a true icon of New York City. Jesse, you took on the challenge of developing the perfect accompaniment to a cold winter’s day, a bagel. Why bring this one to the bake club?
JS: Well, the simple answer is that we realized we did not have a bagel recipe.
SU: Yes.
JS: And we were all a bit surprised by this. And then I think we’re just thinking January, if there really is a baking project to be had, perhaps January is the time.
SU: Yeah. It’s usually cold-
JS: You need something to do.
SU: Yeah. You need a project bake.
JS: Yeah. And you could eat multiple bagels to warm yourself.
SU: Especially these ones. I really like the size of the bagels that you made.
JS: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So the simple answer is we didn’t have one and we thought it was a great time to dive deep.
SU: Before we get too far, let’s get our cheerful how-to music ready. There we go. Jesse, can you walk us through the basic steps of your recipe?
JS: I can and maybe keep this music rolling, it might be a little wild. So you’re going to make the dough, obviously. This is actually made with bread flour and all-purpose flour, more on that later. So those two, plus some salt, some sugar, your yeast, of course, and some water.
And then you’re going to need this in a bowl. And this requires a lot of kneading. It is a low hydration dough. We’ll talk about that more again later, which means it’s very firm. So it takes a lot of work to knead this. You want it to be elasticky and smooth, give it time. And then after you have your dough, you’re just going to wrap it and you’re going to chill this for 12 hours, up to a day in advance and just do a long, slow, cold ferment at that point. So after that, it’s time to shape them.
So you’ll divide this into 12 pieces and then you’ll do that baker’s move. When you cup your hand, you roll it around on the surface, make the little doughballs, and then you’re going to let those rise for about an hour and a half.
And then after that, stay with me, you’re going to put them in the fridge and you’re going to let them rise again another hour and a half. And this is more actually to chill them, to kind of solidify them a bit and make them a little more resilient.
So while they’re chilling, you’re going to get together a gallon of water, some sugar, some baking soda, and you’re going to bring that to a boil. So then after an hour and a half, you have your cold little balls of dough. You’re going to poke a hole them and you’re going to kind of stretch them and you boil them and you boil them on one side, flip them to the other side, and then you put them back on the sheet trays and you add whatever toppings you want.
And then you bake them and the baking process is actually two steps. You’re going to do a higher bake in the beginning and then lower the temperature a bit to make sure they’re cooked through without browning too much. And that’s it.
I say that’s it, and it’s that easy.
SU: I love that you’re like, “That’s it.”
JS: Your weeknight bagels.
SU: So quite a few twists and techniques to teach our bake lovers. And I actually like that some of these techniques are repeats of things we’ve done previously, but then we’re also talking about new things like a low hydration dough. So maybe let’s start with the dough first. Yes, the low hydration, and I want you to talk about why that is important or different or how that gives the texture.
JS: Okay. Bagel dough is very low hydration and that just means the relation to flour and then water is just very low on water. Bagels hover, I guess typically around like 50 to 60% hydration, which it’s tough, it’s a firm dough.
SU: It’s a firm dough.
JS: Yeah. This recipe is actually a touch higher. It’s 63%. But what this means is a higher hydration dough typically means that you’re going to have a very open crumb. So if we look on the more extreme side of the scale, you can look at maybe focaccia, which is a very wet dough. And you can think of the holes within that. They’re very irregular, they’re very open, it puffs a lot and it has kind of like a tenderness to it too. The center does. It has like a plushness. Bagels, if you think about, is the opposite. You want a tighter crumb, you want some chew. No, you want chew, I was going to say resistance. You want some resistance.
SU: I like resistance.
JS: So it needs to be a low hydration dough, which is unique. There’s not many examples of low hydration doughs in the world. So this is possibly cool for the bake lovers.
SU: And the second thing that I want to talk about is, you use two different kinds of flours in the bagel.
JS: Which is not typical.
SU: Which isn’t typical. So you used both bread flour and all-purpose flour.
JS: Yes.
SU: And I need to know your reasoning why.
JS: A lot of people just use bread flour. And the difference between AP and bread, and I think we’ve talked about it before, is that all-purpose flour hovers around like nine to 11% protein content, bread flour may be like 11 to 13. And a higher protein content will result in like more gluten formation. More gluten formation equals more chew. So in bagels, we’re saying like, “Oh, we want them very chewy. Just use bread flour.” So I started there, of course, everyone does. And they were chewy.
SU: They were very chewy.
JS: Yeah, they were chewy. And then we had this sacrilegious idea, like what if there was a bit of AP? So I tested a few different kind of iterations of like a little bit more of this, a little bit more of that. And what I found was that using 375 grams AP with 469 grams bread flour, so slightly more bread flour, resulted in a bagel that had chew.
It did not fight back though. It was still tender because you still want the interior of a bagel to be squishy.
You know what I mean?
Yeah. So we just really liked this custom flour blend, if you will.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Yeah. I really think it did make a difference to the final product because it wasn’t, as you said, like a tough bagel.
JS: Yeah. And all AP, which I tried, made like a dinner roll.
SU: Yeah, you know what I mean?
JS: It really did. Yeah. It’s like not a bagel.
SU: It really did.
JS: Yeah.
SU: Okay. So you make this dough, you use two different blends of flours and you’ve explained why. You mix it, and I do like that in the recipe you state that this is a tough dough and your stand mixer is going to get a workout and if your stand mixer feels hot-
JS: Just give it a rest. Turn it off for few minutes.
SU: Give it a rest.
JS: Yeah. Nothing will happen to the dough if it sits there for a few minutes.
SU: And this is important because bagels get a lot of their structure from building strength in the dough.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And I know we get a lot of like, “Oh, can I mix it by hand?” Jesse’s a lifter boy and he says not really.
JS: Yeah, I’m a lifter boy clocking at 140 pounds over here. Don’t.
SU: Yeah, don’t.
JS: Yeah, I just wouldn’t, it would be like making mochi or something with the big hammers.
SU: Yeah. Oh my God, I love that visual.
JS: You can. I mean, one of our bake clubbers, Mickey, says they knead it by hand. So maybe I need to go take a lifting class with Mickey.
SU: Yeah, I guess you could and a dough would form, but I don’t think your final bagels will have the texture you want without the strength. So we did the dough. It might break your sand mixer, so give it a rest. And then you let the dough rest for like 12 hours and up to a day.
JS: Yes.
SU: And then we divide and shape.
JS: Yes. The first bulk ferment, the long one is really for kind of flavor, honestly. You can do it quicker like at room temperature and it would work and it did, but it might lack kind of that little yeasty flavor, which we were also chasing that in the pizza recipe.
SU: Yes.
JS: And we decided in the pizza recipe because you’re charring it, you’re doing toppings, it’s not worth that. But here, I really think that this long bulk ferment is worth it because bagels are kind of like this blank canvas where it’s like the yeast and the wheat are the flavor and the toppings obviously. So no way around that. We tried. I do recommend the overnight bulk ferment.
SU: Yeah. I think we did have a… There was an appreciable difference in the flavor.
JS: There was. Yeah.
SU: In a nice way.
JS: Yeah. And the dough also, in a way, it feels like it almost hydrates a little and it becomes slightly easier to work with.
SU: 100%.
JS: Yeah. It becomes more like elastic and feels like skin almost.
SU: Yeah, it really did.
JS: Like a cheek. Yeah. So yeah, you can speed this up, do your thing, but I’m not going to give you any specifics how to do that because I don’t really think you should.
SU: Yes. No, I agree. I mean, you can get away with maybe like eight hours, but I think it’s worth the rest.
JS: I agree.
SU: And then let’s get into the shaping.
JS: Yes.
SU: Because I know there are many different camps. Well, actually there are two different camps.
JS: There’s two camps.
SU: Yeah, there’s not many different. The two ways of shaping bagels are?
JS: Yes. The two ways of shaping bagels are, I think most common and traditional is you make a rope out of your portion and you kind of like press and roll the two ends of the rope to meet, to create a bagel shape.
And the other one is probably less common professionally, is after you have your bowl of dough that’s proofed, you poke a hole and then you gently stretch left to right, left to right to kind of make it more elastic and make that hole.
I chose the latter, the hole method, because I think for home bakers, you’ve put in all this time and effort to like perfectly proof your dough. And for me at least, I found it a little bit more foolproof if you poke a hole gently and stretch, there’s still some air pockets retained within that doughball and you’re not completely flattening it.
But yeah, I took a bit of a controversial stance here with the poked hole.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yep.
SU: I do think, no, I mean, I understand why you did it because I do think it’s easier for-
JS: It’s easier. Yeah.
SU: … people who haven’t baked bagels before to poke a hole and stretch the dough.
JS: Yeah. If you made this recipe and you want to make it again, maybe try the rope. If you’re feeling comfortable, expand from there and challenge yourself.
SU: Now my favorite part of the recipe. And I know you discovered a few things during the boiling process.
JS: I did. It is such a singular technique. And I think in the beginning I was boiling them far too quickly.
SU: Like too briefly?
JS: Yes.
SU: Okay.
JS: And when I was doing that, they would look a little lumpy. And I saw a woman online talking about bagels and I hope to find this video. I don’t know where I found it, but she said, “Think about this boiling step as another proofing step.” And that you know that the bagel is done boiling when it has expanded and filled itself out like a balloon.
SU: Oh, wow.
JS: And so then I increased my time because some recipes say, boil 20 seconds per side and I do not go over. I took it to 40 to 60 seconds and they did puff up and they looked smooth. And then when they went into the oven, they smoothed out even more. And it was like it needed this heat to kind of like activate and expand that yeast a bit first.
So if you kind of keep that in mind, like boil them until they have expanded, you’ll be good to go. And maybe that 40 to 60 seconds is actually longer and it could be, depending how big your pot is, how intense your flame is. And that was a really instrumental kind of like turning point for how I thought about how to make these.
SU: Yeah. There was a huge change in the shape.
JS: Yeah. I was like, “Oh, that’s what they’re supposed to look like.” Yeah.
SU: That was a beautiful moment.
What about the liquid that you are boiling in? I know you went through a lot.
JS: Okay. I feel like I’m going to apologize to everyone just off the bat. There’s so much nostalgia and tradition and opinions on bagels and they’re all valid and beautiful and everyone has their way and even different bagel shops have their way. Yeah, you boil them in water depending on who you are, how you make your bagels, you can add things to it. Sugar, honey, malt syrup, baking soda, nothing, some salt. There are some reports, which is almost like this kind of traditional thinking at this point that lye is used in bagel boiling. And since the recipe came out and a lot of bagel makers chimed in and they’re like, actually, this is almost like a piece of information that has been published incredible places throughout all the years and just repeated by everyone, that’s not necessarily true. It’s like not-
SU: That they use lye?
JS: Yes. It’s like, sure, there might be bagel makers using lye and that’s where this information came from, but maybe it’s not as common as these resources might say. Yeah. So I tested everything actually. I tested lye, I tested barley malt syrup, I tested brown sugar, I tested honey.
SU: And what was the point actually of adding any of these things? Why would anybody add them?
JS: For texture and browning and shine and flavor, really. Because if you boil them naked, which you can do and people do that and have beautiful results, like your browning process, depending on the oven, might just be a little slower because there’s things you can add that expedite that process.
For example, where I landed was baking soda and sugar. I think sugar adds a tiny, tiny bit of shine for a little bit, but the baking soda is really an interesting thing. And this is common in bagel making and it’s almost to mimic what lye can do, which is adding baking soda to water bath creates a somewhat alkaline environment. And this makes the bagels more easily brownable.
This speeds up the myelard reaction. So also if you think about a cookie that has baking soda in it, it helps them brown faster. So baking soda, I found really browned them quickly and beautifully.
They got super tan. It got this crackly crust that wasn’t too thick, had a bit of shine. Yeah, I have all these pictures on my phone of all the different boils lined up.
SU: What was the one time… Was it honey and then the color changed so dramatically?
JS: Oh, yes. I think it was like baking soda and honey sat together maybe for longer than it needed to and it turned like terracotta orange.
SU: Yes. It was a weird color.
JS: And I was like, interesting. I was baking bars with blackberries and baking soda and it turned like green or something. You know what I mean?
SU: Oh yes, yes.
JS: Yeah. So something weird happens there.
SU: There was a lot of boiling experiments.
JS: Yeah. But I think ultimately at the end of the day, you can kind of boil in what you like and what works for you. And this was just kind of the easiest and most accessible way to achieve that texture that I was able to land on.
SU: You have this improbable technique. You boiled these bagels and you have to look out for them to become nice and puffy, almost the size of the final bagel.
JS: Yes.
SU: And now is when you top them.
JS: Yes.
SU: You were moving at lightning speed at this particular point in the process.
JS: Yeah, lock in. At this point, lock in.
SU: Yes. Tell me a little bit about the toppings, and we’ll get into the kinds of toppings because you had a lot of really fun ones.
JS: Some weird ones, some bad ones. Yeah.
SU: I think they were great. But talk to me about when is it essential to get the toppings on? How do you get them to stick and which ones work best for you?
JS: Sure. So really the trick is that your bagel still has to be wet. And since it’s hot water and a hot bagel, the water steams and evaporates. So as soon as you take them out of your boiling water bath, you want to throw your toppings on because they’ll stick beautifully. I tried dipping them, which is a common thing. You hold it and you press it into the toppings, which you could do, but it results in a very concentrated blanket. There’s no bagel underneath. It’s topping. Also, then you have to hold with your fingers very hot bagels. So I just sprinkle it on. Yes, so as soon as it comes out of the water, don’t dilly-dally, get your toppings on.
SU: Don’t dilly-dally. I love the dilly-dally. And then what are the toppings? Tell us about the toppings that you used.
JS: Sure. I mean, I did all the obvious ones, which were great, except disclaimer. If you’re doing everything bagel seasoning, you got to be careful because I feel like since it’s trendy right now, they’re like, for sprinkle on top of a potato and eating it or something, they’re already toasted.
SU: So a lot of the packaged everything bagel seasonings in the store.
JS: Yes.
SU: Okay. Got it.
JS: Because they taste better. So try to look for one that looks a little blonde. Yeah, because there are untoasted brands. So look for those because it toasts in the oven. It’s quite a hot oven. So if you get pre-toasted, it might give you that little overcooked garlic onion flavor. You know what I mean?
SU: Oh, I hate that. It’s always so bitter.
JS: Some of the ones we played around with.
SU: Creative ones.
JS: Creative ones that ended up being delicious. Fur cocky, number one. And you want to know why? It’s because the bagel’s wet. The little nori pieces get wet. So they remain green when they bake.
SU: Yes, that’s true. They were very vibrant.
JS: Yes. So it comes out just as it went in. So good.
SU: Sumac.
JS: Sumac. I did sumac.
SU: Aleppo.
JS: Yes. And sugar, which was delicious.
SU: Yes.
JS: I loved any cheese. All the cheeses-
SU: Yeah, the cheese ones were good.
JS: It was very like Panera, like 2015, just came to my suburb.
SU: Bread bowl.
JS: Delicious.
SU: It really did smell like a Panera. I know you did sesame, you did salt.
JS: I did tahine. And I will say not good.
SU: Oh yeah. Tahine was not good.
JS: A little weird.
SU: Surprisingly.
JS: Yeah. I think the citric acid component goes kind of funky.
SU: The fur kaki was so good.
JS: Yeah, that’s all I can think about at this point.
SU: That with salmon, smoked salmon.
JS: Ooh.
SU: Match made in heaven.
JS: Oh. Flaky salt was safe, but good.
SU: And then the final bake, the final process of these bagels.
JS: The final bake, yes.
SU: I noticed you do a, much in the way you use two different flours, you use two different temperatures here to finish your bagels. You start them off really high at 425 and then you lower the temperature, after about 15 minutes, you lower the temperature to 350.
JS: Yes.
SU: What made you do that?
JS: A few reasons. First, the baking soda, it is speeding up the browning. So you don’t want it at 425 the whole time. It will get really dark. But you do want to hit it with that first really hot temperature. So that final kind of puff happens. Because like I said, when you boil them, they will be expanded and as they sit, they exhale a little bit and you want to hit them with really hot heat so then they like back up.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yes. So after your first 425 15 minutes, they will be reinflated. Don’t fret if they’re starting to look a little wrinkly, they will. And then when you reduce it, really honestly, this is just so they’re baked through.
SU: Okay. So Jesse, when the bagel comes out of the oven, are you waiting for it to cool or are you like… Are you going at it right away?
JS: Depends on the day. I know with a bread loaf, you’re not supposed to rip into it right away because it’ll affect the moisture and yada yada. That’s a whole baked good. This is a bagel. So if you mess up just one and have that little moment of joy eating a warm bagel, that’s your decision. Our producer’s saying, “How many bagels do you think you ate?” Too many.
SU: How many bagels do you think you ate, Jesse?
JS: Well, I did that thing where I’m like, “Oh, I’ll have a little piece.” And I have a little another piece. And then I’m like, well, there’s two bagels I ate. There are also a ton in the freezer.
SU: How many bagels did you bake? How many rounds did you bake?
JS: This was one of those recipes.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: I would say at least 10.
JS: At least 10.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: So 10 times 12 is 120 bagels.
JS: Yeah. And I found I learned the best way to freeze them, which Hannah instructed me in a work trade. You got to slice them first.
SU: Oh, yeah.
JS: Yeah, because otherwise that’s tough.
SU: Yes.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And with that, we’re going to take a quick break.
JS: And when we get back, we’ll answer some listener questions all about the bagels.
Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
SU: Okay, Jesse. Are you ready for some listener questions?
JS: I’m ready.
SU: Okay. We have a question about the dough. Marianna writes, “First time posting.” Yay. Welcome to the club. “Shaping wasn’t easy and the center of some bagels disappeared. Either way, was happy with the results. The kneading was much longer than the recipe called for. I kneaded for about 50 minutes. And it still didn’t pass the elasticity test perfectly. So how do you know that the dough has been fully kneaded and my stand mixer is about to die on me after 10 years.” Oh, okay. That might explain the 50 minutes. “What brands would you recommend for multipurpose home baking?”
JS: A loaded question there.
SU: Interesting.
JS: Yeah, yeah. Okay. 50 minutes, I’m seeing red flags here. Interesting. I will say it takes forever to knead, it does. But 50 minutes maybe seems on the upper end.
SU: Yes.
JS: I will say that there was this moment in the test kitchen, I think we were rushed and Shilpa was testing it and I was like, “You need to do the full time. You need to do it.” And she’s like, “It’s fine.” And she maybe, let’s say she shed six minutes off the knead or whatever. And I don’t think it fully passed the elasticity test at that point.
SU: Yes.
JS: It was fine.
SU: It is… Yeah. Listen, I’m torn about the elasticity test.
JS: I know.
SU: Would you like to explain, Jesse, what the test is for readers or listeners who may not know what you’re talking about?
JS: Sure. You can just rip off a little piece of your dough and you stretch it between your fingers and it should stretch quite thin without ripping. People say that you should be able to see light passing through it.
SU: Yeah, it’s often called like a window paint test.
JS: Yes. So as long as it doesn’t rip, you have a lot of gluten going on there. Yeah.
SU: It’s hard to always, especially in a home-
JS: In a home mixture, it’s really hard.
SU: It’s really hard to get that kind of gluten development. And the thing about baking is, there are many different ways of building gluten. And sometimes that rest period, like when you proof things overnight really builds a lot of structure as well. And then you can also manually build it by folding, giving it a couple of folds. So I think as long as your dough isn’t shaggy and soupy or drooping.
JS: If it has a sense of smoothness, not fully smooth, but if it has a bit of it, I think you’re okay.
I agree with that. I agree with that.
SU: And the second part of Marianna’s question is, “My stand mixer is about to die on me after 10 years. What brands would you recommend for multipurpose home baking?” I would say we tested a couple of different stand mixers or we have been testing.
JS: Recently, yeah.
SU: I don’t know. Our opinions are divided. If you are a very dedicated bread baker, like if you’re baking a lot of bread, then get one of those dough mixers. Oni has just come out with one which we’ve been using in the test kitchen and we like it.
JS: It feels very much like a commercial mixer, but tiny.
SU: Yeah.
JS: It functions the same way.
SU: Size down, but yeah, with the same functionality.
JS: I wouldn’t use it for like… I don’t know, cookie dough might be harder, especially like a meringue in there. Tough.
SU: Yes.
JS: Something’s going to happen.
SU: Because the bottom of that bowl is flat.
JS: Exactly. Yeah.
SU: So it doesn’t feel very conducive to using it for quick breads or cakes or meringues-
JS: Yeah. There’s no gravity pulling the ingredients down.
SU: Yes. But for bread it works amazing.
JS: Amazing. Yes.
SU: We have been testing the Brevil in the test kitchen, which has been performing pretty well.
JS: I would say tried and true, KitchenAid. KitchenAid does it. I will say maybe for a bagel, she’s going to get a little hot. So maybe for really low hydration doughs, maybe not the best bet.
SU: Yeah.
JS: But she’ll live.
SU: Yeah, old reliable.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And Marianna also… And she sent in a picture of her bagels. Looks like she topped them with everything seasoning and furikake-
JS: Look good.
SU: And yeah, they look good. They look like they have really good structure, nice shape. I do see that the centers of some of them have come together.
JS: It’s not bad though.
SU: Yeah, not bad.
JS: I think my advice is, you need to stretch it more than how visually it currently looks than you want your final product.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Because when you bake and boil, it expands. So say you have a perfect hole, it’s like an inch, like a bagel. It will close. So I found you actually have to stretch about three inches and that will have a shape that retains a hole while still preserving some of the air pockets within it. I would say honestly, skew slightly bigger versus slightly smaller is going to be a safer bet.
SU: Okay. Next question, Jesse. Lee asks, “Can I boil these, then freeze them and bake them off as needed? Or can I freeze them after forming them, but before boiling? I see instructions for freezing cooked bagels or the final bagels, but I’d like to bake them off as needed instead.”
JS: Lee, I hate to be a dream killer, I’m going to say no.
SU: Yeah.
JS: I think this is just too finicky of a recipe. Things will go wrong. But Hannah really did put me onto the joy of a pre-sliced frozen bagel. They really do toast up nice. Maybe this isn’t the answer you wanted, but…
SU: It is the answer we’re giving.
JS: I apologize. Yeah, I wouldn’t do that.
SU: We’ll never lead you astray at Bake Club.
JS: Yeah.
SU: We give you advice.
JS: The boiling bin freezing especially scares me. Something will happen. I don’t know what. But it’s not good.
SU: And the thing about yeasted doughs, that if you freeze them before baking, is yeast doesn’t really perform very well in the freezer after it’s been shaped in a dough and its efficacy comes down.
JS: Yeah, like some of it dies.
SU: Some of it dies. Yeah. So it’s not really… You could lose some of the structure and size and volume if you freeze unbaked dough.
JS: Yeah. It scares me too much.
SU: Yeah. So listen to Jesse on this only. We have another question from Christina C. She writes, “Some of my bagels tore while they were baking. Did I underproof them or is it a shaping issue? I did the full proof time, but was a little nervous about overproofing after someone else’s posts, so maybe they needed more.” And Christina has sent us photos, Jesse. She has two separate trays, six to a tray, half of them are everything, half of them are sesame. And yeah, I see what she’s saying.
JS: It’s like a belly button, like a pale belly button.
SU: Yes, in the very center and maybe some along the edges there’s a slight crack.
JS: I do actually feel that this is that you probably proofed just fine, but the boiling, that final boil was perhaps too short and you didn’t get that final rapid expansion. So then it happened in the oven, and yeah, that’s why you’ll see the color difference between the rip and the outside because it’s expanding actively as it bakes. So it’s not coated in that water solution and then you just have the pale interior that expanded.
SU: Interesting point that you’re making.
JS: She has one cut open, the interior looks great.
SU: Yeah, the interior of that one looks very good.
JS: Yeah. Christina, you’re being hard on yourself.
SU: Yeah. The shape of your bagels are actually beautiful.
JS: Yeah, just boil a little longer. You’re fine.
SU: We have a question from Rachel L. She says,” I haven’t done much fermentation baking outside of sweetbreads and rolls, so these bagels were definitely something new to try. I have the recipe because I knew two sheet trays wouldn’t fit in my fridge. However, something went wrong during the process and a lot of my bagels ended up misshapen and partially flat and puffed at the same time. I did a poke test after step three before I transferred my doughballs to the fridge and it indicated overproofing. Any advice on what could have happened? Flavors are there and they’re chewy, but I need bagel redemption before the end of 2026.” And Rachel L has submitted a photo. Rachel, we love you.
JS: It’s like a bean. I mean, it looks kind of pretty-
SU: It’s very artsy.
JS: Yeah, it’s very rustic.
SU: It’s coated in Zatar, which great choice. It looks like a bean with a belly.
JS: I do think obviously shaping is an issue. I do think related to that, it is a proofing issue. And with bagels, there’s so many steps where that could go wrong. If it was overproofed before you made the hole, as you think perhaps that was an issue, and it could be. When you poke that hole and then you also boil it and you also bake it, there’s so many opportunities for it to deflate because overproofing, almost contrary to what it sounds like is like yes, it has more air in it, but then it becomes unstable.
So maybe when you poked it and you did all these things, it collapsed. It could also be, again, that you boiled them too quickly for not long enough. So that final stage, they didn’t inflate to their potential, but it does feel like a proofing and shaping issue which are related. You know what I mean? Yeah.
SU: Do you think something Rachel could have done? Because I see that she’s recognized that it’s overproofing.
JS: Yes.
SU: Rachel is skilled enough that she has poked. And when she says the poke test, that is usually when to check if those yeast dose are proofed or underproofed or overproofed, you gently press into the dough with a slightly damp finger. And then the way the dough bounces back should tell you a lot about it. Do you think Rachel could have salvaged her bagels at that point when she realized that they were overproofed? And this is after she shaped them into the balls, but before she’s poked holes in them.
JS: Actually, Shilpa, I want to hear what you have to say too, but I feel like because it’s active dry yeast, there’s a little bit more insurance. I almost say deflate these balls and then reroll them into little balls and then just let them proof again.
SU: 100%. Agree with you.
JS: I feel like active dry yeast is a little more resilient.
SU: Yeah.
JS: You can kind of punch it down and beat it up and it’ll come back.
SU: Yeah.
JS: Yeah.
SU: I agree with you. I would just smash that dough back together, reroll and start over.
JS: Yeah. It might not be 100% perfect, but I think it will get you there. Yeah.
SU: Agree.
JS: All right, Just smash and try again.
SU: And a final question from Banu on mixings. Banu writes, “Nice and chewy. My stand mixer was too small to knead the whole dough at once, so I did that in two batches.”
JS: That’s cool.
SU: Some of the dough split a little when shaping the holes before boiling, but it’s not too noticeable in the final product. Added a bunch of toppings because why not? Pictured are plain parm and grier, zatar, everything, furikake, and one chili crisp as it is.
JS: [inaudible 00:32:39] is cool.
SU: That’s a great idea.
JS: Yeah.
SU: And Banu says very yummy. How and when would we add mixings or make them sweet, like blueberry or cinnamon raisin bagels?
JS: Sure, sure. Bagels look great.
SU: Yeah, bagels look great.
JS: You can add mixings, I would say at the very last moment of when you first make the dough, like right before you bulk fermented. But I would say that with caution. Cinnamon, raisin, cool. You can add cinnamon and you can add raisin. Blueberry, I certainly would not add a fresh blueberry. Maybe if you can find dried ones, that would work. I just wouldn’t add anything that is wet, certainly. So dried fruits. I’m trying to think of other stuff. Nuts. I don’t know why you’d do that, but… Well, actually, because also they have to be boiled. So I was like, “Oh, chocolate chips.” I’m like, “No, that wouldn’t work because they’ll just boil away.” Dried fruit, spices.
SU: Do you think little pieces of hard cheese will also melt away?
JS: I was thinking that too. Something might happen. I guess what do you put in bagels besides blueberries, cinnamon raisin?
SU: Yeah.
JS: I guess nothing, right?
SU: Yeah, not traditionally, no.
JS: Yeah. I think as long as your addition is dry, not fatty, not wet, you should be okay, and not meltable.
SU: And not too sharp.
JS: And not too sharp. Because it’ll cut the gluten.
SU: Yes. So no coconut flakes, for instance.
JS: Oh yeah. I was like, what’s sharp?
SU: Yeah.
JS: No coconuts. Yeah. Yeah, just stick to the classics. Yeah.
SU: We’re out of ideas.
JS: Yeah, we’re out.
SU: We are going to take another break.
JS: When we get back, we’ll introduce you to a baker you should know.
SU: Welcome back to BA Bake Club.
JS: It is one of my favorite parts of the show. It is time for us to introduce you to a baker whose work we think our listeners should know about.
SU: And this month we’ve found a New York City based baker who we know you are going to love. It’s Melissa Weller.
JS: We both love her, so we love her work. Melissa is a partner at Bub’s Bakery in New York and the author of A Good Bake and Very Good Bread, both of which are stunning books.
SU: Stunning.
JS: Yes. The covers, the good covers. The good covers.
SU: The covers are beautiful, and speaking about Bub’s Bakery, you’ll find at Bub’s cinnamon buns, you can find queenamons, you can find sandwiches and bagels. And the things that you won’t find at Bub’s Bakery are the top nine allergens. So no nuts, no peanuts, no shellfish, no fish, no dairy, no eggs, no wheat, no soy and no sesame. I’m not sure-
JS: Yeah, that’s right.
SU: How are you making pastries?
JS: Magic. I mean, but don’t worry. In the pursuit of allergen-free baking, we can attest, we’ve had it many times, everything at Bub’s is truly delicious. The texture is always spot on. So welcome to the club.
Melissa Weller: Thank you guys. Thank you so much. I’m just happy that you have me on. I’m happy that you tried everything at Bub’s. I think sometimes if somebody has an allergy, they definitely want to go to Bub’s. And I don’t know if you have allergies. I haven’t asked either of you.
SU: We don’t. No pastry related allergies.
MW: We’re glad you came. That’s important to me. I wanted the pastry products at Bub’s to taste like anything else that I would make with gluten or without gluten.
SU: Yes. And I think just like your books, how they address questions and issues for home bakers and professional, I think Bub’s does something similar for eaters. It’s like you go there if you have allergies or even if you don’t, because as you said, everything does taste like good just on its own.
JS: That makes sense. We had an episode about vegan cookie with Dory. And kind of during tastings, that was the whole thing. We’re not going to judge this differently.
MW: Yes.
JS: And that was a really fun exercise.
MW: That is, right? Yeah. It’s important that vegan baking or top nine allergen free baking is elevated and is given respect because a lot of times we just sort of say, “Oh, that looks not good or that doesn’t taste good or I don’t even want to try it.” And if this opens the door to, okay, we can make really good pastries, then that’s really important to me.
JS: I love that.
SU: So I want to take our listeners back a little bit, what made you fall in love with baking to begin with?
MW: I baked with my mom when I was growing up and I loved baking. And I studied in France in college for a year and I loved pastries when I was there. And I wanted to do something creative and I was working as an engineer and I didn’t like my job at all. And I would come home or even during work, I would sneak, check on the internet for recipes and then go try things when I got home.
And I just fell in love with it. And it was something I really wanted to do. And I think that there was a book called What Color Is Your Parachute. It was just saying, “Do what you love.” And isn’t that the message for all of us? “Do what you love.” And so I really wanted to do something in culinary. And so I pursued that. And then if I fast-forward and say when I was at Per Se, that was the first time I made-
JS: Casual.
MW: Yeah. Sorry.
JS: No, I love it. Go on, go on.
MW: That was the first time I’ve made gluten-free bread. And so that was a very big learning curve and that was maybe 15 years ago.
SU: And when you say you were an engineer, were you a chemical engineer?
MW: Yes, a chemical engineer.
SU: I think this is important. This is an important detail because I think that is impactful and relevant to baking.
MW: I think it was more the engineering part. We were Thermodynamics. We had to figure out if there’s a cup of cocoa in front of you, where does the heat transfer? Where does it get coolest, fastest, and how? And then you start to think about those everyday problems. And when you’re in the bakery, I think all bakers do this. We try to figure out, okay, why didn’t that work? And then you kind of start to back out things.
And then I think it was more about applying different skillsets that I learned as an engineer, Excel spreadsheet, only changing one variable at a time when you’re trying to figure something out. That sounds kind of dorky, but if you have all of these ingredients and you’re like, “Okay, well, how do I change this recipe? It’s not working.” You start to look at them one at a time and say, “Okay, I’m only going to change this this time.
I’m only going to change the amount of sugar.” Then you kind of can sort of make progress instead of saying, “Oh, I’m going to change five different things all at once.” And maybe that’s kind of a simplistic way of explaining it, but I think I just apply all of those things.
JS: You’d be great in the test kitchen.
SU: You’re a part of Bake Club.
JS: Yeah.
MW: Amazing. Thank you.
JS: So Bub’s Bakery opened in September. What has the response been like?
MW: It’s been excellent. Everyone’s really excited. People come who haven’t been able to have a cinnamon roll in years and years and they come with tears in their eyes when they taste it because they haven’t been able to have this. And now they have the opportunity to have a treat.
JS: That’s so sweet.
MW: It’s really sweet and really good.
SU: Did you have allergies at all or anybody in your life have allergies that you were drawn to this project?
MW: I don’t. I don’t have any allergies. I was consulting at the time and I get approached with a lot of different projects, and my partner, Jen, her husband has a lot of intolerances. So this was her brain child. And I liked the sound of the challenge because if you’re asked to make a croissant for somebody who wants to open a bakery, I’ve made a lot of croissants, but this was like something new and it was something interesting. I’m like, “Okay, I can make something gluten-free taste really good,” I said to myself, “I can probably make something that doesn’t have any eggs taste really good, but how do I combine all of them together?” And I think that was interesting to me.
JS: Well, you have two books out and our James Beer nominee, but both of these books contain allergens like gluten, dairy eggs. So how did you start developing these things?
MW: I did do gluten-free bread baking aperse. I made a gluten-free bagel for Sadelle’s when I opened Sadelle’s. For Walnut Street Cafe, which was in Philadelphia, I did some vegan pastries. Still, I didn’t combine them. And so for this, I thought, okay, lowest hanging fruit. What’s the easiest thing that you can think of that you could make that doesn’t have any of these in it?
And I’m like, it would probably be like, okay, gluten-free cupcake, that’s an oil-based cake. That’s kind of like, you could probably get away without the eggs, I thought to myself, I just wasn’t sure how. And so I went for the cupcake first. I thought that might be easier. And so I was trying to do easy things first and there were a lot of fails along the way, so many different failures and we would taste it and be like, “No, definitely not.”
JS: What are some of these key ingredients that the bakery kind of leans on?
MW: We lean on, love Tourlami butter. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but it’s just a fantastic butter. And I didn’t start testing the recipes for Bub’s with Tourlami, but started later on. I felt like it was a game changer in terms of its flavor and just how it was working. Some of the earlier butters that I would try would kind of melt and fall apart while I was baking.
And I was like, “Oh no, how is this going to work?” We used a plant-based egg product for our egg and cheese, that also had soy in it to begin with. And when Jen’s husband said, “Hey, wait, there’s soy on the back.” And we’re like, “Oh, well, we can’t use it then.” Within a few months, they had changed their formulation and were using mung bean.
SU: Wow.
JS: So interesting.
MW: Other companies are like, “Oh yeah, no, this is important to be top nine allergen free.” And so they’re changing their products along as we go.
SU: In many ways, I feel like the bakery is a product of the time that we live in. Do you feel it would have been plausible 10 years ago to have-
MW: No, I think that there are more products out there like coconut yogurt, I love coconut yogurt, but I don’t think it was out 10 years ago.
SU: No, it was rare, you would have to go to an esoteric store somewhere.
MW: Yeah, exactly. And then all of a sudden there were some coconut yogurt jars out.
JS: A coconut cult.
MW: Yes.
JS: Yes.
MW: Yes. And I was like, “Oh, I’m going to try this coconut yogurt.” I think my son was in elementary school and he’s in high school now. So that’s sort of the timeframe. So it hasn’t been that long ago. And so now we have these other products that we didn’t have before and maybe we have a generation of people who have more allergies more than we’ve had before too. I don’t know about that, but it seems that way to me.
JS: Okay. So moving on, this episode is all about bagels.
MW: Yes.
SU: With lots of gluten.
JS: With lots of gluten. And we brought you on because you have some bagel experience. What makes the perfect bagel to you? When you’re developing it, what are you looking for?
MW: It has to have the right chew and squishiness.
And it has to have a crispy crust, but not too thick of a crust because if it’s not squishy enough, I feel like it’s more like a bread and not like a bagel. It has to be like a nicely brown, caramelized outside, but really squishy and chewy.
JS: So not a dinner roll.
MW: Not a dinner roll.
JS: Not too plush.
SU: Yeah, because the question becomes, how can you make a bagel that’s different from like a crusty bread with a hole in it? Yeah.
MW: When I first started making bagels at the Smorgasbord, this was like in 2013, I partnered with the major food group to open Sadelle’s and I was making these bagels at the Smorgasbord once a week.
SU: Which is an outdoor-
MW: It was an outdoor market in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg. The driver who would help me deliver the bagels to the market, because I was baking up in Harlem and he would help me deliver the bagels to the market. He told me, “No, bagels aren’t like this.” And I was kind of struck that this guy was giving me advice. He’s like, “Bagels are squishier.” Somewhere along the way during that market period, I was told they’re too dark. I’m baking them too hard. And I’m like, I thought about that for a long time. I’m like, “Are the bagels too hard?” And that changed how I started to bake the bagels.
And along the way, I’ve had other people describe, growing up in New York, their bagel experiences and they all describe a squishy bagel. And I was kind of like, “Oh, as a bread baker…” It was like really prized to get this beautiful golden fit crust.
And I kept asking myself, maybe I’m doing that with the bagels and it’s too crusty. And I think bagels have a squishiness factor to them that that’s why we like them is that they’re pretty squishy.
JS: Okay. We’re going to move on to a listener question if you’re up for it.
MW: Yes.
JS: Okay. Sharon from the club asks, “Could you suggest a gluten-free recipe as well or any tips or anything you have?”
MW: I think that the tip that I would recommend trying, so I add potato, roasted potato to my dough.
JS: You roast your own potato?
MW: Yes.
JS: Wow.
MW: I started this thing.
JS: That’s your takeaway. I don’t know because whenever I want to add potato to something, Chris is like, “You’re going to roast your own-
MW: That’s true.
JS: I’m like, “Yes, I am.”
MW: It came from Per Se. The best tasting gluten-free bread had little chunks of potato in it. And I’m like, okay, if everything tastes this good with roasted potato, then the Sadelle’s I threw in roasted potato into the bagel. I did the same thing at Bub’s. A little roasted potato into the dough. It’s a starch, so it helps with the fermentation. It also helps with moisture and retaining moisture in your gluten-free dough because sometimes gluten-free can get a little dried out, and it adds good flavor.
SU: What about what’s holding the bagel together? Is it Xantham gum?
MW: I’ve been using Xantham gum.
SU: Okay.
MW: Yeah.
SU: Is there a preferred blend of gluten-free flour for the home baker? I know at Bub’s you make your own-
MW: Yes. I like Thomas Colors come for cup.
SU: That did perform really well.
JS: And that’s like a groundbreaker too.
MW: Yeah. Didn’t Bon Appétit have an article about how somebody wrote an article about how well this flour performed?
SU: It was me.
MW: Oh, wow, wow, wow.
JS: [inaudible 00:46:51] I am the manager.
MW: Oh, now this is coming full circle. Oh, wow. I remember reading that article because I was working on my own recipes and I was like, okay.
SU: Oh yes.
MW: I’m going back to the drawing board. I’m going to read what other people say about which gluten-free flour brand is the best. And I remember reading that article and I’m like, “Oh, I like all this information.” And I’m like, “I’m going to try that.” And so I liked it the best.
SU: It really performed extremely well. Your recommendation is cup for cup for gluten-free baking.
JS: Yes. And we endorse it-
SU: [inaudible 00:47:22] endorses. I do. Okay. And now is time for rapid fire questions.
MW: Oh boy. Okay.
SU: And Jesse and I are going to take turns to ask you the questions.
MW: Okay, great.
SU: Okay. Jesse, you start.
JS: Okay. What is your bagel order?
MW: Oh, bagel order. Does that mean the bagel that I like the most?
JS: Sure.
MW: Oh, I’m sorry. I like sesame seed, then maybe salt, then everything, then plain.
JS: I think I actually agree with this exact order.
MW: Oh, wow.
JS: Sesame seed is my favorite. Yes. I totally agree, endorse, yes.
SU: Okay. Montreal style bagel or New York style bagel?
MW: Sorry, New York style bagel, of course.
SU: Of course.
JS: How do you feel about these QSR restaurants doing little bagel bites?
MW: I don’t like bagel bites. I want the whole thing.
JS: There you go. There you go.
SU: Who is your baking phone a friend when you run into a tricky issue?
MW: I love my partner, Chat. He’s a perfect baker student. And so I’ll ask him a question.
SU: And he’s a chef.
MW: He is a chef. Yes.
SU: Okay.
JS: What is the most underrated ingredient when it comes to baking? Is it potato?
SU: That’s a good answer, Jesse.
MW: Salt seems pretty obvious, right?
JS: I don’t think it is obvious for most people.
It’s not.
MW: I feel like it’s an important… It’s underrated.
JS: I agree.
SU: For baking specifically.
JS: For so many things, for chocolate. Oh, it needs it. Yeah.
SU: And the best thing to bake if you’re just baking for yourself.
MW: I think a loaf of bread.
Sourdough bread.
JS: I like that too.
SU: With gluten?
MW: With gluten, yes.
SU: Wow. Melissa, thank you for being here. Truly.
JS: Thank you so much.
SU: This was such a wonderful conversation.
MW: Oh, thank you guys for having me so much. This is a lot of fun.
SU: That’s it for this month’s edition of BA Bake Club.
JS: Shilpa, can you tell our bakers the February Bake Club recipe?
SU: Okay. I just filmed social media for this.
JS: Literally now.
SU: Absolutely. February’s Bake Club recipe is cheddar old bay biscuits, very flaky cheddar-
JS: Beep this out if they’re coming for us.
SU: Yes.
JS: They’re inspired by Beep This Out Red Lobster. Y’all know who I’m saying, the famous biscuits at a restaurant, but they’re flaky.
SU: But they’re flaky.
JS: They’re very good.
SU: I love a biscuit. I think everybody should be baking more biscuits.
JS: I agree.
SU: Because it gives you the satisfaction of warm bread without the wait time and that much of effort of working with yeast. But anyway, love a biscuit.
JS: Love it. Is there any special equipment or ingredients that bakers should have on hand?
SU: Well, it’s old bay, so you should have a fresh jar of old bay. Have old bay, have a nice cheddar that you like to snack on. I would say stick to the sharp, extra sharp category so it carries through. Something aged would be really nice. And as for equipment, have a bench scraper.
JS: Yeah, that’s nice.
SU: A metal bench scraper is really helpful in shaping this. And I’ve given instructions to do the biscuits either in the food processor or by hand, I’m slightly partial to the food processor for this one.
JS: That’s unlike you, I feel like.
SU: Really?
JS: Yeah.
SU: I do love me a food processor. It works both ways, but I would say the bench scraper feels essential.
JS: Okay. Love it. Well, Bake Lovers, once you bake through the cheddar biscuits, you can send us your pictures and questions, and there are so many different ways to get in touch.
SU: You can comment on the recipe on the Epicurious app or on the Bon Appétit website. You can comment on our Substack or you can email us at bakeclub@bonappetite.com. And if you made it and loved it, please rate and review the recipe on our site.
JS: We’re your hosts, Jesse Szewczyk.
SU: And Shilpa Uskokovic.
JS: We were edited by Michele O’Brien and produced by Emily Elias.
SU: Pran Bandi is our studio engineer.
JS: Research editing by Ryan Harrington.
SU: This episode was mixed by Amar Lal at Macrosound.
JS: If you liked this show, leave us a rating and review and hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.
SU: And if you’re not already part of the club, head to bonappetite.com/bakeclub to find all the information you need to join.
